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[–] 98 points 1 year ago (16 children)

Whether or not you should consume HP Lovecraft media despite the fact he was a racist is entirely up to you because he is long dead. He doesn't make any money. He isn't even racist any more. Because he's dead.

I always say "If you're going to be a shitshow of a human being but a talented artist, the least you can do is also be dead."

See also: Phil Spector, Pablo Picasso.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    HP Lovecraft was more a clinical xenophobe and expressed that in his writings. He was afraid of different races, but he was also deadly afraid of scientific advancement and even the color indigo. He also didn't fund terrible politicians or get into feuds on twitter. You also don't see terrible people on twitter using his writings to justify their beliefs.

    JK Rowling is actively funding and bragging about making other people's lives worse.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago

    Yeah, I actually think Lovecraft was doing what was probably the healthiest thing available to him at the time with all his fucked up phobias by turning them into inspiration for spooky stories. He was creative and articulate enough that he could have been writing political screeds and trying to get others on board with driving out all the immigrants, but instead he wrote about crab monsters from space. Far from the worst possible outcome considering a lot of the other possibilities from the time.

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  • [+] -8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    HP Lovecraft is a national treasure.

    His detractors are potatoes.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    There's also something to say about someone that was a racist in his mind, but made some effort to move in a better direction and/or live in isolation, versus someone that's actively moving toward ruining other people lives with the benefits they reap.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I'm sure some is profiting from his estate, no?

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Well his estate is pretty loose about enforcing copyright and don't take in much per product. That's why you see so much merch. Secondly they are not some racist dipshit.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    Plus, it was a shared mythos. He created the main core of it, but others contributed as well. So, figuring out copyrights would be difficult, since some stories reference other stories. Remember, they thought they were just writing some horror stories, but that they would never be something anyone other than other horror story enthusiasts would see.

    IP was not a thing yet, and they were just writing for fun. A modern version would be the shared SCP universe.

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  • [+] -15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    If only everybody would conform to the consensus morality. We'd be living in caves, eating garbage and telling really stupid stories but at least we'd all be non-shitshow human beings.

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  • [–] 138 points 1 year ago* (51 children)

    Reminder: "separating the art from the artist" is an approach to engaging with an artwork, and is a separate question from whether or not you should engage with an artwork when doing so has real life consequences.

    Whether or not you should consume HP Lovecraft media despite the fact he was a racist is entirely up to you because he is long dead. He doesn't make any money. He isn't even racist any more. Because he's dead.

    When you consider whether or not you consume Harry Potter media, you must consider that JK Rowling will make money and will donate that money to anti-trans groups. If you still go on to buy licensed merch, or pay a streaming service to watch it, you will literally be helping to propogate transphobia. Continue to enjoy anything you currently own if you want. That is where separating the art from the artist comes into it. But if you still actively promote the material online and thereby increase the demand for it; again, transphobia, arguably.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago* (18 children)

    Can we pirate it. Or will that just make it more popular

    Edit: or should we just boycott

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Pirating it wouldn't make it more popular if you kept it to yourself, but talking about it after you watched it probably would.

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  • [+] -15 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I have to say, this is just such an in-the-weeds moral stance that it crosses the boundary of reasonableness. Honestly, it's this sort of thing that drove me away from left wing styles of thinking a while ago.

    The impact you make on the world in any of your possible actions with regard to Harry Potter is miniscule. Like, truly, utterly insignificant. Are you going to organize an anti-potter boycott? Participate in a protest? Harass the actors in an online trolling movement? Throw eggs at JK Rawling's house? Great! Go do all those things! Actively participate in changing the world for the better! These actions might actually lead to real change.

    But denying yourself pleasures in the name of moral purity accomplishes nothing. If all you do is sit at home and think to yourself "I wanna watch the new Harry Potter thing, but I can't, because then I'm a bad person." (or in this case, "I wanna talk to my friends about the new Harry Potter thing I pirated, but I can't, because then I'm a bad person) then you are accomplishing literally nothing except making yourself miserable. Again, if you are going to actually do something, then go do it! But if you don't have the time or energy or interest or social battery to actually do something, then shaming yourself or others into not doing things is actively counterproductive. Go take a road trip without calculating if the pleasure you will derive is worth the carbon footprint! Eat an ice cream cone without feeling bad about the the suffering of the factory farmed cow it came from! Get one of those good-paying jobs in oil and gas or defence and make some goddamned money! You are simply not important enough for any of these actions to have any actual real-world impact. The only thing that happens is that you convince yourself that if you ever enjoy anything, then you are a bad person. You train yourself to constantly be looking for the ways in which life's simple pleasures are destroying the world, so you can feel bad about them.

    Just stop it. Be happy. Do whatever you need to do to chill out and enjoy your life and gain some sense of contentedness and security. And then go out and make the world a better place by actually doing something. Hyper-anxious, shame-ridden, depressed know-it-alls rarely create effective social change because no one wants to hang out with them. No one see them and thinks "yeah, that's what I want my life to look like."

    In order to lead by example you have to show a path to a better world. Not a cell.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Just pirate it and don't speak about it. Win win. No monkey for the bigot and you get your pleasure.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Congratulations. You successfully managed to both not engage with my point in any meaningful way, and also provided a solution I already deflated in the comment you are responding to.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    Don't confuse that mentality for left-wing thinking. It is an entirely liberal, center-right reactionary mentality to be overly concerned about optics and moral purity.

    What you have said is actual left-wing thinking. You have essentially described the point of "no ethical consumption under capitalism". That if people really care about this, then they need to actually do something about it instead of just shaming others for indulging on simple creature comforts.

    Guarantee that the people bitching about others enjoying HP media also go home to suck down a bottle of Coke which directly funds militant anti-labor hit squads in South America to prevent their bottling plants from unionizing. Or maybe they are a Pepsi person, where their purchase has helped fund the exploitation of prisoners who are forced for pennies an hour to make their cans. Or any other of the myriad of things under our current economic structure that funnels wealth into the hands of the elite who seek to oppress the working class.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You are hardly the arbiter of what is left wing thinking. Fuck ethics im going to concern myself with my own needs is apolitical. Its neither Left nor right.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I mean, you're more than welcome to stay politically ignorant. I'm not an arbiter, but I am just describing facts.

    Also, what they said was absolutely not 'fuck ethics I'm going to concern myself with my own needs"

    Nice bad faith misrepresentation of what they said.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago

    Ethics isn't just big things it's little things as well. I don't matter I shouldn't need to do anything just isn't Left or right wing it is an apolitical thought. Claiming that because you hold yourself to be left-wing and you thought it and thus it is left wing thinking is just flat out wrong. Please explain exactly how Im wrong. Explain how your position is left wing

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago

    Also most people's actions are on the overall ALL small. Most people make no big ripples. Telling them to either change the world or do nothing is telling them to do nothing.

    Ethics are a habit if you can't give up a tv show what can you do exactly

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Instead of not enjoying something why not enjoy something else there is finite time and far more to enjoy than you shall ever find time.

    What of value would be lost?

    If being a POS takes half of your income potential away people will be less likely to behave so and others will think it less acceptable.

    Dismissing the aggregate effect of small effects is dismissing most actual effects. Its ahistorical.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Anyway, will most probably be shit. 99% of series these days are bad and just money grabs.

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  • There are usually some good scenes or themes or characters that make some of the 99% worth a watch. The Netflix Avatar series was shit that didn't understand the tone of the original, except for the scenes added for Lu-Ten's Funeral and the 41st Division. These alone added enough for me to begrudgingly accept the existence of the live-action series. There are usually some things like that in most of the new ones I've seen.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Don't deprive yourself of happiness to spite her. That being said the books have several reasons to not read them on their own merits. Don't forget "dobby is weird for not wanting to be a slave" is an actual plot point in the books. Not to mention the goblins. If you want to revisit a beloved fantasy series, give LOTR another read/watch.

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  • It’s up to society if we should separate a work from its artist. We’ve collectively agreed that this work shouldn’t survive the century. Not only that, you can’t separate an artist from their work when they’re literally tangled in it and controlling it

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    But if you still actively promote the material online and thereby increase the demand for it; again, transphobia, arguably.

    I agree with everything you wrote up to this point. I'm not really a Harry Potter fan and I certainly don't think much of J.K. Rowling since she revealed her true nature but this last bit is a very slippery slope.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (26 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (25 children)

    I had not seen that before but I'm not sure it applies. Perhaps the wording was poor to indicate my intent but it was not my intention to indicate "a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends" as that article says.

    I was trying to communicate that making a broad statement, like OP did, that promoting Harry Potter online indicates transphobia or transphobic behavior by itself ignores both intent and context, which I think matters.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (24 children)

    They're not saying it's transphobic, but it is promoting transphobia. Which isn't really any better in my books.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    it ispromoting transphobia

    It literally is not, not without context and intent.

    Somebody going online and posting, "I grew up with Harry Potter and loved it and I'm interested to see the new [whatever]" is not equivalent to promoting transphobia.

    You cannot make a black and white determination like that without context and intent. Without those you're just making assumptions.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    "I grew up with Harry Potter and loved it and I'm interested to see the new [whatever]" is not equivalent to promoting transphobia.

    It is equivalent, because in this case, it is literally promoting transphobia. One of the worlds leading transphobes will directly benefit from the profits this show makes, and will directly turn those profits against dismantling the rights of trans folk.

    This isn't an analogy, it's not dramatic license, or over exaggeration.

    You cannot make a black and white determination like that without context and intent.

    If you know she will hurt trans people with the money she makes, and you do things that continue to make her money (which includes just advocating for continued consumption of her work), it is black and white, and the context and intent are quite visible.

    By itself, it doesn't mean someone is transphobic. But it does mean that at the very least, personal nostalgia is more important to that person than the harm their actions cause. And that is plenty of intent and context.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    It is equivalent, because in this case, it is literally promoting transphobia. One of the worlds leading transphobes will directly benefit from the profits this show makes, and will directly turn those profits against dismantling the rights of trans folk.

    adverb: literally in a literal manner or sense; exactly.

    It literallyis not. I posted the definition in case you needed it. Purchasing or consuming a product is not exactly the same as promoting transphobia.

    By your logic every person in the United States who pays any kind of taxes that go to the federal government is promoting transphobia. If you've ever shopped at a store that employs a transphobe, you're promoting transphobia. If you've ever watched a movie or tv show that has a transphobic actor in it, you're promoting transphobia. Doesn't matter if you know it because, as you put it, they directly benefit from your money.

    If you know she will hurt trans people with the money she makes, and you do things that continue to make her money (which includes just advocating for continued consumption of her work), it is black and white, and the context and intent are quite visible.

    The only part of this that's true is "advocating for continued consumption of her work" and even that's a stretch because a person could have any number of reasons. Also, simply expressing interest in something is not advocating for it, it's sharing an opinion or preference.

    By itself, it doesn't mean someone is transphobic. But it does mean that at the very least, personal nostalgia is more important to that person than the harm their actions cause. And that is plenty of intent and context.

    It doesn't mean that, that's what you're assuming because that's what it means to you.

    You do not make the rules for other people.

    I am so tired of this "fall in line or else" attitude everyone seems to have.

    You want to preface it with "in my opinion" you go right ahead and we'll have to agree to disagree but it is by definition and factually not literally promoting transphobia.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    As I said, if not voluntarily giving money to or making excuses for someone who will use that money to hurt people is too much to ask of someone, then their context and intent is quite clear.

    Including yours.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Except they aren't giving money to someone who will use it for harm. They are giving it to whatever production company has created the series.

    It is only after this, and through a convoluted system of ownership and IP laws, that the production company is forced to give a percentage of its proceeds to the hateful bigot.

    If you want to criticize anything, criticize that system. Not individuals for wanting to engage in simple creature comforts that they find enjoyable.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    As I said, if not voluntarily giving money or making excuses for someone who will use that money to hurt people is too much to ask of someone, then their context and intent is quite clear.

    Its not.

    Including yours.

    Thanks for demonstrating. You can imply I'm transphobic or promoting transphobia but I'm literally not. I'm pretty comfortable with the balance I've struck and, quite honestly, I'm not being transphobic or promoting transphobia because I don't care if someone's trans or not. It's not really any of my business.

    My general philosophy is that people are free to be whomever they want, believe whatever they want etc. as long as they aren't hurting others or forcing it on other people against there wishes.

    This is why I don't like JK Rowling, but I wouldn't like her if she was actively working against black people or people with physical or mental disabilities or funding Israeli efforts in Gaza or any number of other things.

    I don't agree with lots of people's beliefs but I actively dislike them when they begin to weaponize those beliefs.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (15 children)

    Except for the fact that the money spent on the movie directly funds transphobia via JK Rowling....

    You get she's literally doing that right?

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    You get that the only person who controls what JK Rowling does is her, right?

    You don't have to like that someone may choose to continue to consume Harry Potter but trying to claim they are directly promoting transphobia unless the context and/or the intent is there.

    Someone with a track record of transphobic behavior, sure. Someone who is posting about it in spaces intended for trans people, especially if that space has already clearly communicated their stance on it, maybe.

    Context and intent matter.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Excuse me while for not caring about the difference when all the same, the money is still harming my community.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Your money is harming your community.

    By your logic every person in the United States who pays any kind of taxes that go to the federal government is promoting transphobia. If you've ever shopped at a store that employs a transphobe, you're promoting transphobia. If you've ever watched a movie or tv show that has a transphobic actor in it, you're promoting transphobia. Doesn't matter if you know it because, they directly benefit from your money.

    Everyone has choices to make, however the context and intent behind those choices matters.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I love how you chose an example I literally can't control like taxes.

    And your right, I can't pick and choose every single thing. But you better believe there's a lot of media I won't enjoy because of actors either. Tom Cruise being one.

    Intent matters. But when a community tells you hey, this action, that you could easily not not do, is harmful to me and my community.

    Yes I do judge you for that choice.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I love how you chose an example I literally can't control like taxes.

    You do have a choice; you could choose not to and face whatever consequences with your moral conviction intact.

    Yes I do judge you for that choice.

    This is you're right but it still doesn't make it literally promoting transphobia.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    If it quacks like transphobia and it promotes transphobia.....

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    This is about the response I expected. Too bad.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago

    Except I'm not.

    Also you don't get to decide what's violence against a community. Just like I don't get to say what black racism looks like, you don't get to tell actual trans women what transphobia is.

    I didn't do any of these things.

    I'm disappointed you resorted to personal attacks but not surprised. I hope the world gets to a point where trans folks are able to be whomever they want free from persecution. Until then please stay safe and take care of yourself and each other.

    I am going to block you now but that's mostly because I get the sense you have no interest in anything I have to contribute on Lemmy and only a little because I think you may follow me to other communities to downvote me there like you did on every comment here. Even the ones not in response to you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Just not supporting jkr is a lot more clear-cut than all those other examples. It's easy unless you start justifying it.

    Your logic is performatively neutral and comes from a place of callousness and complacency.

    All of this counter-discussion on this topic is bad faith and/or political trolling and should be treated as such by mods and future readers.

    The minute you step back and realize that somebody is really trying to argue against letting go of Harry Potter from such a weird angle, you realize how bad a take it really is. It's so bad, that it's hard to even be taken seriously beyond political strategy and wasting the time of the real people here who believe in standing up for what's right in such a shitty time in the world.

    It's petty and shitty. You can consume Harry Potter and similar content if you wish, nobody will stop you. But anybody with half a brain realizes that the ethical move is to just let it go. Move on.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    The minute you step back and realize that somebody is really trying to argue against letting go of Harry Potter from such a weird angle

    I haven't argued that at all. What I have argued is that context and intent matters when it comes to an individuals actions and, while you're free to judge away, just because someone lives there their life in a way you don't like doesn't automatically make them transphobic or mean they are literally promoting transphobia.

    Edit: I had to come back for this bit.

    Just not supporting jkr is a lot more clear-cut than all those other examples. It’s easy unless you start justifying it.

    I'm guessing this wasn't your intent but it reads like you should only take a stand when it's easy.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You know systemic bigotry needs not intent, or context, from the individual, right? You seem to be arguing that your personal lack of hatred towards a group, and lack of direct harm, means your actions can't be bigoted. And no, being forced to pay taxes is not the same as choosing to buy into something funding bigotry.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You know systemic bigotry needs not intent, or context, from the individual, right?

    I don't know but I don't disagree with it. It's also not what I said.

    You seem to be arguing that your personal lack of hatred towards a group, and lack of direct harm, means your actions can't be bigoted.

    I'm not. My feelings on the subject, hate or lack thereof, have nothing to do with it. I am arguing that consuming Harry Potter content or talking about it online is not equivalent to literally being transphobic or promoting transphobia. To make that determination requires context and intent.

    And no, being forced to pay taxes is not the same as choosing to buy into something funding bigotry.

    They are not directly equivalent though it's interesting that's the only example I provided you're addressing.

    You're not forced. You have the choice to not and face those consequences. It's an awful and unfair choice that nobody should even have to consider but it's there. By choosing not to refuse to pay doesn't mean you're literally being transphobic or promoting transphobia and that's the point.

    You can disagree with someone's choice to consume HP content or their decision to discuss it online but that doesn't make it literally being transphobic or promoting transphobia. That requires context and intent.

    Transphobia, by definition, consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender or transsexual people, or transness in general. Consuming HP content or talking about it does not meet that literal definition, until or unless there's context to support it and/or expressed intent, e.g. someone says "I hate trans people so I bought all the HP books to show my support".

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That is "classic" bigotry, if you will. Systemic bigotry does not need these feelings, as you thoughts on the subject mean nothing to those who are the targets of the bigotry, as buying things that enrich their persecutors, and actively donating to those people ideologically, bears no significant difference to the persecuted, in any practical manner. Also, if it is something I can practically avoid, living in the world I was born into, then I do. Entertainment is like the poster child of things you can choose to avoid. Suggesting people live an impossibility does no good, but that is not what is happening with people telling people to drop JK Rowling's IP.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Systemic bigotry refers to ingrained biases and discriminatory practices within institutions and systems that disadvantage certain groups of people. An individual consuming Harry Potter content is not "systemic bigotry".

    buying things that enrich their persecutors, and actively donating to those people ideologically, bears no significant difference to the persecuted

    I've never said anything about "donating to those people" as a direct donation to JK Rowling in the current context would demonstrate intent to support that ideology. The sole act of purchasing a product, in and of itself, does not, regardless of how the persecuted feels about it.

    that is not what is happening with people telling people to drop JK Rowling’s IP.

    No it's not. It's quite clear that the messaging is "drop JK Rowling’s IP (do what we as a group want) or you're literally transphobic and/or promoting transphobia". Again, a single choice to consume HP content without context or intent factually and by definition does not mean someone is being literally transphobic and promoting transphobia.

    Edit: as I continue to learn things from Lemmy it's come to my attention that the stance that Consuming Harry Potter content or talking about online makes you guilty of literally being transphobic or promoting transphobia is a form of purity testing.

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