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a catch 22 (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 1 week ago by to c/transmemes@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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[–] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Well I'm personally pagan so I'd say I'm not a huge fan of anti theism. I also see it as just as capable of authoritarian crackdowns against personal freedom as religions are.

I'm a firm believer in secularism, including forced secular education. Religion is a personal matter and so long as I don't impede on anyone's life with my practice of it I should be free to light my incense, say my prayers, dance in front of some bonfires, and take my psychadelics in attempts to better understand the divine. And I should be free to meet up with others who are likeminded to do the same.

But also, on Islam I just have seen so many anti theists behave towards people of middle eastern descent in a way indistinguishable from were they simply racist, so I do always keep an eye out for how they act.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago* (1 child)

    I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful reply! :)

    I also see it [anti-theism] as just as capable of authoritarian crackdowns against personal freedom as religions are.

    Sure. I agree. I'd argue its less likely but its certainly possible.

    I also see it as just as capable of authoritarian crackdowns against personal freedom as religions are.

    We're on the same page here.

    Religion is a personal matter and so long as I don’t impede on anyone’s life with my practice of it I should be free to light my incense, say my prayers, dance in front of some bonfires, and take my psychadelics in attempts to better understand the divine. And I should be free to meet up with others who are likeminded to do the same.

    Outside of previously mentioned authoritarian regimes, an anti-theist doesn't necessarily take issue with your personal private theistic motivated decisions. Its when you actively promote religion in public that they'd take issue and if they are bold, form opposition. The issue would be, are you actively promoting your ideas? Then your religion ceases to be private.

    And of course, there is the issue where 'personal' choices effect everyone. Vaccinations come to mind as an example. No person is an island.

    But also, on Islam I just have seen so many anti theists behave towards people of middle eastern descent in a way indistinguishable from were they simply racist, so I do always keep an eye out for how they act.

    Oh, I know there are some anti-theists who use their anti-theism for cover for their racism. Its completely fair to be aware when someone is selective about which religions they critique. In particular I find "Cultural Christian" atheists particularly loathsome.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    Yeah, I agree on when personal choices affect everyone, to a point. Specifically there must be a legitimate external harm and it shouod be remedied in the least restrictive means. I say this specifically because of the restrictions on religious drug use, both against pagans and indigenous Americans in modern day as well as against Christians in the 1920s USA (catholic priests had to be given an exception to the prohibition of alcohol for the wine served in services).

    I believe I should have the freedom to express and spread my beliefs unless I'm doing direct harm by doing so, religious or otherwise. And to restrict my ability to wear religious clothing or symbols is a restriction on my freedoms.

    I too am annoyed by Christian atheists. And I've been an anti theist, as well as dating one and befriending plenty since converting to paganism, so I'm not like, going to be on the warpath against y'all, but it's not like I like that y'all look down on my beliefs, which have had a noticeably positive impact on my life. I'm still a firm believer in freedom from religion, even if I do add a bit of religious zeal to some of my beliefs that overlap with my religion (such as environmentalism).

    And on a practical level if you want to kill religion as much as possible antitheism is a bad banner to rally under. What you want is secularism where everyone is exposed to the idea that science is what we have evidence for and everyone else is free to have their own beliefs at home. Religion is less sticky when people know folks of all sorts of them and when it's not something that people have any reason to feel persecuted for having.

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