Murse comments on Why does God allow evil and suffering?

[–] Murse@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 months ago (6 children)

If your god is not all powerful, then your religion lied to you about what your god even is.

According to your lore, his will is our reality - he isn't bound by the laws of our universe, he made them. So he didn't just allow evil and suffering to exist, he actively put it here. Why worship a being so full of hate?

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[–] zloubida@sh.itjust.works -5 points 2 months ago (5 children)

No, according to my lore, the world escaped God's will. That's like the first pages of the Bible. That's the meaning of the Fall's myth.

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[–] Murse@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

...and which defining pillar of your god are you going to rugpull to rationalize the world being able to escape god's will?

Every explanation for this shit is him situationally not being all powerful, all knowing, or all good.

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[–] zloubida@sh.itjust.works -4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

It depends on how you define the words. Is omnipotence the capacity to do absolutely everything? Then yes, God is not omnipotent. But no philosopher or theologian ever defined omnipotence like that. Using that against Christianity is a strawman. Omnipotence, clearly defined is the capacity to do anything possible. So God can't make a squared circle but he's still omnipotent. He can't create a universe where everything follows his will and still is free at the same time, but he's still omnipotent.

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[–] Murse@slrpnk.net 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Impossible according to what? The laws of the universe that god made? Couldn't he just as easily have made different laws?

And why is the capability to commit evil always a defining characteristic of free will? We also cannot breathe underwater, fly, or lift a freight train with our god-given anatomy, so do we actually have free will?

Compare it to our own legal system: you have free will to choose what you want for dinner tonight, right? Loads of restaurants with loads of entrees, grocery stores stocked with whatever you need to cook up your creation: the combination of options is unfathomably vast. Free, right? ...but wait, according to the law, you're not allowed to cannibalize your neighbor's 4 year old kid, so I guess that makes you a mindless drone cuz if evil isn't on the menu then neither is free will.

So let's put that restriction back in god's court: he doesn't need to enforce his law, he just wills it and so it is: you still have the unfathomably huge number of non-evil options, but this time cannibalism is actually impossible: you are literally incapable of committing or even considering it because divine intervention will not let you - do you have free will?

Our freedom exists within the constraints of some system. Both legal and divine. There are loads of things we aren't free to do - the capacity to commit evil taken away from us would be a drop in the ocean.

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[–] zloubida@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

Impossible according to what?

Logic. Logic precedes the Creation.

And why is the capability to commit evil always a defining characteristic of free will?

Because freedom is not absolute, one is always free in relation to something. Since God is love, freedom in relation to God is necessarily the freedom not to love and therefore, the freedom to do evil.

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[–] Murse@slrpnk.net 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Logic. Logic precedes the Creation.

Logic according to what? What makes you believe logic predates creation? If you're citing genesis, you might want to reread it: it's vague as fuck and certainly doesn't address the (non)existence of logic prior to creation.

Kinda sounds like you're making shit up, in which case you might want to review revelations too, which instructs not to do that or sky daddy will give you that eternal spanking.

Because freedom is not absolute

Yeah no shit, that's half the point of my last post, the other half being why it's so important to you for evil to be part of that freedom, which...

Since God is love, freedom in relation to God is necessarily the freedom not to love and therefore, the freedom to do evil.

Speaking of logic, that's flawed as fuck. The absence of love is not synonymous with the presence of evil. The absence of love is just the absence of love. All the people, critters, things in your life that you've paid no mind to? That's absence of love. They mean nothing to you - and that's fine. The presence of love? Your friends, family... I don't need to elaborate here do I? But evil? Hopefully this is something you've never been compelled to do - causing suffering for its own sake. That's not fine... and the universe we're stuck in is absolutely stuffed with it.

So again, why does free will - even specifically in the context of freedom from love - have to include evil?

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