pics

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[–] MiddleAgesModem@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Nazi symbolism?

That's like calling an Indian person with swastika a Nazi.

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[–] Evotech@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

Good fun

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[+] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world -15 points 5 months ago (27 children)

All of the above tbh.

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[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 52 points 5 months ago* (25 children)

While I think it's just harmless fun, understand most of those criticizms. But the nazi comparisons seem sad and pathetic. Should every symbol the nazis tried to appropriate for themselves be surrendered to them? Should we give them the ability to limit what symbols the rest of us are allowed to use? I don't think we should.

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[–] aasatru@kbin.earth 30 points 5 months ago

It has been a problem in particular with runes, as they are heavily associated with neo-nazis to the point where at least Scandinavians often feel very uncomfortable around it. Some participants in the debate in Norway are praising the team for reclaiming the symbolism from the nazis.

I personally agree that we cannot surrender our historical legacy to nazis, and I think it's worth making active efforts to reclaim it. So I think this is a good thing, as long as the team also make sure to celebrate diversity and anti-fascism. I chose my user name here according to a similar logic.

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[+] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world -21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (23 children)

You're right, it's unfair on the scandiboos to associate brutal white slaver-colonisers with nazis.

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[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 11 points 5 months ago (18 children)

I was talking about the symbolism associated with the viking cultures, not the way they conducted themselves when visiting neighbours. I wouldn't want the majority of thar to be shelved off as nazism just because some germans a millenia later thought the letters and mythology looked cool and wanted them for themselves. Or should we ditch every aspect of mythology and folklore that the schizoid Himmler decided to take a fascination with?

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[+] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world -10 points 5 months ago* (17 children)

If you want to wear a swastika, that's your choice to make. People will judge you for it though.

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[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 17 points 5 months ago (7 children)

That one has basically no other associations in the western world and I'm not a hindu, so I don't have a reason to. But pagan traditions, symbolism and mythology are a different matter. If you wish to label all of those as nazism, only the nazis will thank you for it.

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[–] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world -1 points 5 months ago* (6 children)

Can you quote where I labelled them all the above as nazism please. You seem to have spent this entire conversation trying to put words in my mouth.

In fact, can you also quote where I said we need to throw out everything the nazis ever tried to claim while we're here too please. I feel like you made that one up as well.

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[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 6 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Your original response was "All of the above tbh." to a list of critiques of the photoshoot. If you think that posing for a viking picture is too close to nazi symbolism, then why do you think that? I can't see anything that would directly associate the picture with the german nazi party, or fascism in general.

The only explanation I could figure was that you think the nazi appropriation of the general aesthetic taints the whole concept of vikings with the nazi label. If my assesment is incorrect, then I do apologize. It's just that that specific line of thinking is sadly somewhat common and is the core of a wider phenomenon of surrendering the symbols and aesthetics of many pre-christian traditions (particularly in northern Europe) to the nazis.

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[–] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

As I never said that nazis and viking were interchangeable terms, I'm going to to ahead and presume that means "no, I can't quote where you said we have to discard every single thing the nazis claimed. However, rather than admitting that I made it up, I'm going to double down on the lie." Good for you. Enjoy your cheap rhetorical devices, used for Internet points. My mistake for engaging someone like you in good faith. I've learned my lesson. Some people in Norway themselves also think its close to nazi symptoms. I said, it a little bit of a little too close. But hey, let's not let what I actually said get in the way of things.

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[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

If you want to debate semantics, I'll say that what's there to admit? I never made any claims about what it is you're saying, other than that one citation of your original response. The closest was when I said that "If you wish to label all of those as nazism, only the nazis will thank you for it.". I didn't claim that you do, but if you do, then only the nazis will thank you for it.

What I did do was take what I perceived to be the reasoning behind your comment (this picture of people posing as vikings is too close to nazi symbolism, so the concept and aesthetics of vikings is too close to nazi symbolism, presumably due to the far-rights attempts to appropriate said aesthetics) and apply it in a wider context in an attempt to demonstrate why I have my issues with it. If the vikings are too close to nazi symbolism, then what else is? You didn't explain your reasoning, so I had to make some assumptions based on what I see around me in the world. We have plenty of neonazis here in Finland trying to appropriate ancient symbols for themselves, and we're having similar discussions about that here every now and then. Countries (even smaller ones) aren't hiveminds and you will find most opinions represented within them.

If you think that symbols shouldn't be surrendered to the nazis, then why take issue with this image where the viking aesthetic is being used outside of fascistic ideology? It only serves to diminish that association. And the fact that you do take issue with this, means that you don't want to see symbols which you consider to be too close to nazi symbolism to be used by those who don't wish to portray themselves as nazis, effectively surrendering the symbol to the nazis. If you want the concept and aesthetics of vikings to be surrendered to them, what other symbols do you want to surrender?

You make no efforts to clear up your stance to any of the above, so I'm still left speculating.

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[–] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

Why do you need to be told "no, I didn't say the things you said. I said the things I said." Whats that about?

Its funny that your point is that you claim to genuinely not be able to tell the difference between "a bit of all the above" (referring to some nazi overtones. So, a little bit of some) and "we have to surrender all the imagery the nazis claimed unto them." If that's really the hill you're looking to die on here, then be my guest.

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[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 5 months ago

Can you quote the part where I said that you said that? Oh don't bother, you can't even seem to accurately quote yourself. The comment you replied to was "...or just too close to nazi symbolism for comfort?" and your reply was "All of the above tbh."

I just explained in length what I said and why I said it, so I'm not going to do it again. This has been entertaining enough. Have a good night.

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[–] MiddleAgesModem@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

"All of the above" genius.

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[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 7 points 5 months ago (7 children)

If a Hindu, Buddhist, or Jain puts a swastika outside their home, literally no one except an ignorant person would judge them for it.

We're talking about Scandinavians using the viking aesthetic for a photoshoot. It's not nazism.

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 1 point 5 months ago*

Any symbol that can possibly remind people of something bad will spark instant rageposting - the desire to vent anger seems to outweigh wanting to be right.

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[–] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world -1 points 5 months ago (5 children)

I said it has overtones of all the above. I didn't say its all nazism. Its very surprising to me that people have chosen to read that when the only person who said anything like that was someone else trying to put words in my mouth.

I don't know, felt kind of cheap to me.

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[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)

That's a really pathetic deflection. Now go home and think about what you've done.

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[–] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world -1 points 5 months ago* (3 children)

I don't think you understand what defection is. Feel free to tell me when I said it was more than overtones of all the above.

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[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Arf arf!

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[–] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

Yeah, I didn't think you could. What a pathetic deflection.

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[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 5 months ago

You're the one deflecting. Why would I waste time arguing with someone who's sealioning?

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[–] MiddleAgesModem@lemmy.world 1 point 5 months ago

Stupidly. The ones judging should be called out for being ignorant.

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[–] Starik@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Pretty much any group from history behaved terribly by modern standards. Even the colonized were doing their own colonizing before being overpowered by a more powerful colonizer.