History Memes

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[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 0 points 5 months ago* (9 children)

I talked about Stalin in my reply to Pug so I'll stick to Lenin here: Your framing is only possible in hindsight. Remember that Lenin was a Bolshevik back when it was the Russian Social-Democratic Labor Party, a full 20 years before the revolution. He was expelled from university for getting into radical student politics before Nicholas II even took the throne. Same as Stalin—but even more so due to being from a wealthy and prestigious family with lots of opportunity for social advancement—if he wasn't a true believer he could've done literally anything with his life. Painting evil mass murderers as fakes is appealing, but in this case it doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny; both had already been committed radicals for way too long by the time of the revolution.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 9 points 5 months ago* (8 children)

Your framing is only possible in hindsight.

No, plenty of people at the time condemned Lenin as a hypocrite without any real principles and a tyrant-in-waiting.

if he wasn’t a true believer he could’ve done literally anything with his life. Painting evil mass murderers as fakes is appealing, but in this case it doesn’t stand up to the slightest scrutiny; both had already been committed radicals for way too long by the time of the revolution.

Are there any major mass murderers who came to power, rather than inheriting it (literally or effectively) who weren't true believers by your criteria?

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[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 point 5 months ago* (7 children)

No, plenty of people at the time condemned Lenin as a hypocrite without any real principles and a tyrant-in-waiting.

Which is just the sort of intra-socialist mudslinging that would've been a dime a dozen in the decades leading up to the revolution. Nobody goes to prison for principles they don't have.

Are there any major mass murderers who came to power, rather than inheriting it (literally or effectively) who weren't true believers by your criteria?

I mean any mass murderer has to be a true believer in something, at least so they can sleep at night; the question is whether they're true believers in the thing they're espousing in public, and in that case my example would be Hitler. He believed in the bigotry and genocide to be sure, but the "socialism" part of "national socialism" was obviously bogus. That said, most mass murderers do at least vaguely believe in the reasons they espouse for the mass murder; it's hard to be a mass murderer otherwise.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (6 children)

Which is just the sort of intra-socialist mudslinging that would’ve been a dime a dozen in the decades leading up to the revolution.

Okay, but it clearly demonstrates that the framing of Lenin as the fascist scumsucking mass-murderer-in-waiting that he was does not require hindsight, as numerous socialists at the time, by your own admission, recognized that fact.

Nobody goes to prison for principles they don’t have.

That is an incredibly naive position to take. People willingly suffer for all sorts of fucking reasons, and principles are pretty far down the list.

I mean any mass murderer has to be a true believer in something,

... "their grip on power" comes to mind.

at least so they can sleep at night;

... I don't even know where to begin on this one.

the question is whether they’re true believers in the thing they’re espousing in public, and in that case my example would be Hitler. He believed in the bigotry and genocide to be sure, but the “socialism” part of “national socialism” was obviously bogus.

He also didn't espouse socialism in public.

That said, most mass murderers do at least vaguely believe in the reasons they espouse for the mass murder; it’s hard to be a mass murderer otherwise.

So your answer to the question is 'no'.

Chiang Kai-Shek? A true believer (in what, God only fucking knows). Pierre Laval? A true believer. Jean-Bédel Bokassa? A true believer. Blaise Compaoré? A true believer.

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[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 0 points 5 months ago (5 children)

Okay, but it clearly demonstrates that the framing of Lenin as the fascist scumsucking mass-murderer-in-waiting that he was does not require hindsight, as numerous socialists at the time, by your own admission, recognized that fact.

That's... not what I was saying though? Whether Lenin had the makings of a tyrant or not, he had to have believed in the revolution or he wouldn't have dedicated his life to it (which, love him or hate it, that's exactly what he did). Lenin had been a professional revolutionary for more than 20 years by 1917, and the idea that this was all an act so he could eventually seize ultimate power is frankly ridiculous without some hard evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

That is an incredibly naive position to take. People willingly suffer for all sorts of fucking reasons, and principles are pretty far down the list.

I mean unless he got himself expelled from university and derailed his career for material gain, it'd have to be principle.

He also didn't espouse socialism in public.

"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party program is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?" "Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists. Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution […] We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one."

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

So your answer to the question is 'no'.

No? The answer to my question is "Hitler," but also of these the one I know is Kai-shek, and that guy was absolutely a true believer... in radical conservatism, rule by the ultra-rich and somehow also Georgism??? Either way current or future tyrants craft their ideologies at least in part to justify their rule, making them essentially rationalizations, in which case yeah mass murdering dictators had ways to rationalize their atrocities. It's impossible not to kill thousands or millions of people and not feel something about it; that's just not how people are built.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 3 points 5 months ago (4 children)

That’s… not what I was saying though?

Your framing is only possible in hindsight.

Whether Lenin had the makings of a tyrant or not, he had to have believed in the revolution or he wouldn’t have dedicated his life to it (which, love him or hate it, that’s exactly what he did). Lenin had been a professional revolutionary for more than 20 years by 1917, and the idea that this was all an act so he could eventually seize ultimate power is frankly ridiculous without some hard evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

"The idea that people would work towards power all their lives is ridiculous" is really the position you're taking.

... come the fuck on.

I mean unless he got himself expelled from university and derailed his career for material gain, it’d have to be principle.

This may be a shock, so I invite you to sit if you aren't sitting already, but there are more things in life than just material gain and principles.

“Why,” I asked Hitler, “do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party program is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?” “Socialism,” he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, “is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists. Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution […] We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one.”

Which has about all the validity of redefining democracy as autocracy, and then claiming to be a believer in democracy.

But furthermore, and contrary to your claims, this would establish Hitler as a 'true believer' in the socialism he espoused in public.

No? The answer to my question is “Hitler,”

... but you already explicitly said that you considered Hitler a true believer in his core causes.

but also of these the one I know is Kai-shek, and that guy was absolutely a true believer… in radical conservatism, rule by the ultra-rich and somehow also Georgism???

Radical conservatism, except for the part where the KMT was anti-conservative in both rhetoric and, when it suited Kai-shek et co's power-seeking to be so, action. Rule by the ultra-rich, except for the part where the ultra-rich took a backseat to the military and any-fucking-one-else that Kai-shek felt he needed at the time.

Either way current or future tyrants craft their ideologies at least in part to justify their rule, making them essentially rationalizations, in which case yeah mass murdering dictators had ways to rationalize their atrocities.

So in what way is being a true believer different than being a venal opportunist?

It’s impossible not to kill thousands or millions of people and not feel something about it; that’s just not how people are built.

It's incredibly easy. You probably kill people all the time, man. I kill people all the time. All you have to do is reduce it from seeing someone face-to-face (and some people can do even that, though they're generally exceptional and often sick fucks) to a distant, bureaucratic process.

We're both probably relatively normal human beings. Actually, fuck that - we're both probably above-average in conscientiousness. You heap moral opprobrium on the consciences major political actors all the time for their murders - not without cause. Do you want to take a guess at how easily they would sign away millions of lives and sleep easy for the least cause of staying in power?

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[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

"The idea that people would work towards power all their lives is ridiculous" is really the position you're taking.

No, my position was that someone working exclusively toward power wouldn't become a professional revolutionary years before the system was seriously shaken. There were simply better paths to power available to someone like Lenin.

This may be a shock, so I invite you to sit if you aren't sitting already, but there are more things in life than just material gain and principles.

I am shook.

Still, what motivation would Lenin have had to go through more than two decades of radical politics other than believing in radical politics? That's a massive hole that you have to address before your argument makes sense.

Radical conservatism, except for the part where the KMT was anti-conservative in both rhetoric and, when it suited Kai-shek et co's power-seeking to be so, action. Rule by the ultra-rich, except for the part where the ultra-rich took a backseat to the military and any-fucking-one-else that Kai-shek felt he needed at the time.

Okay admittedly I'm not the most familiar with Kai-shek's career, but also okay? The fact that he engaged in opportunism doesn't mean he didn't believe in anything; it just means he was willing to lie about his beliefs.

So in what way is being a true believer different than being a venal opportunist?

100% venal opportunists usually aren't a thing—like I said even someone who's in it for power needs to have a reason/justification why they deserve power, which is why I was arguing for a stronger claim: that Lenin and Stalin believed in values at the very least similar to the ones they espoused in public. Hitler fails this test because he didn't believe in socialism in any meaningful sense of the wrod. Kai-shek also doesn't. Trump doesn't need explanation (in hindsight that should've been my answer).

You probably kill people all the time, man. I kill people all the time. All you have to do is reduce it from seeing someone face-to-face (and some people can do even that, though they're generally exceptional and often sick fucks) to a distant, bureaucratic process.

I'd hope not? In the first place there's not enough people for a significant fraction of people to be killing them all the time.

Do you want to take a guess at how easily they would sign away millions of lives and sleep easy for the least cause of staying in power?

But that's the thing: Stay in power for what? There usually needs to be something there. This is counterterrorism, democracy, rule of law, "natural rights" (aka private property), the prosperity of the master race, national interest, etc depending on which utter piece of shit we're talking about. It's the existence of these justifications that allows them to do what they do.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

No, my position was that someone working exclusively toward power wouldn’t become a professional revolutionary years before the system was seriously shaken. There were simply better paths to power available to someone like Lenin.

... are there? What avenues to absolute power are there when the core ideology of the extant system is Tsarist "Unshakable autocracy"? What power is a non-revolutionary law student going to gain under that system?

I am shook.

Still, what motivation would Lenin have had to go through more than two decades of radical politics other than believing in radical politics? That’s a massive hole that you have to address before your argument makes sense.

A desire for power. I thought that was clear by my previous statement.

That being said, there's also adventurism, personal ties, a desire for fame or infamy, even sheer fucking boredom. Shit man, people do insane and long-term shit all the time for reasons other than material gain or principles.

But hey, according to your theory, every Old Bolshevik bank robber was a true believer.

Okay admittedly I’m not the most familiar with Kai-shek’s career, but also okay? The fact that he engaged in opportunism doesn’t mean he didn’t believe in anything; it just means he was willing to lie about his beliefs.

See, your entire position isn't any sort of falsifiable theory or assertion as it is an article of faith. There is no form of proof that could possibly dissuade you from the notion you've taken up. No actions or statements matter; only the axiom that every mass murderer is a true believer deep down.

You remind me of the fundamentalist Christians I grew up around.

100% venal opportunists usually aren’t a thing—like I said even someone who’s in it for power needs to have a reason/justification why they deserve power,

... this is incredibly naive.

that Lenin and Stalin believed in values at the very least similar to the ones they espoused in public.

They believed in socialism because they took power away from the workers?

That's your definition of socialism?

Hitler fails this test because he didn’t believe in socialism in any meaningful sense of the wrod.

But one-man direction of the workplace - that is socialism in a meaningful sense of the word? Reducing the peasantry to serfdom under a totalitarian state - that's socialism in a meaningful sense of the word?

Kai-shek also doesn’t.

Okay? I didn't ask if Kai-shek was a fucking socialist, I asked if he was a true believer despite having no apparent genuine beliefs from his statements or his actions.

Trump doesn’t need explanation (in hindsight that should’ve been my answer).

Why is Trump not a true believer, when every other fascist shithead is? You already admitted, again, that Hitler believed in the core causes, and your only point of disputation is that it wasn't "real" socialism he believed in; despite the fact that he didn't even claim to believe in the same socialism you're defining.

Or hell, maybe he did - God fucking knows you've already went to bat for oligarchy once. Is your only quibble with Hitler's socialism that the Junkers won out instead of the Strasserists?

I’d hope not? In the first place there’s not enough people for a significant fraction of people to be killing them all the time.

Fucker, we live in comfortable enough circumstances to be arguing on an obscure web forum over history and politics. We are privileged here, and we are both killing people.

But that’s the thing: Stay in power for what? It’s the existence of these justifications that allows them to do what they do.

Jesus fucking Christ, you can't be serious.

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[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

What avenues to absolute power are there when the core ideology of the extant system is Tsarist "Unshakable autocracy"?

Definitely not absolute power, but there was no reason for radical student to ever expect absolute power. His father was a high-ranking regional bureaucrat and his mother was a wealthy landowner; someone as talented, hardworking and ruthless as Lenin would've easily been able to get promoted to a high government post, which would've made any future ambitions much easier to achieve. It'd have definitely been easier than overthrowing the government—a pipe dream as late as April 1917.

But hey, according to your theory, every Old Bolshevik bank robber was a true believer.

I mean fucking yes (more or less, my personal line is February 1917)? Anyone not a true believer would've dropped out multiple times over. Speaking of which, is there any body of historiography you're drawing from here or is it just your (very justified) hate for the guy? What's your evidence here?

No actions or statements matter; only the axiom that every mass murderer is a true believer deep down.

No? Only that most believe in some kind of coherent political or social program (again, Trump being a notable exception). I'm willing to change my mind, but I'd need evidence, and this sounds more the purview of psychology than history. Either way again, and I won't repeat this a third time, I'm applying a tighter standard to these mass murderers: Are the ideas they actually believe in reasonably close to those they espouse, no matter what those are? Kai-shek fails this standard because any standard fitting his actions would contradict his espoused beliefs.

Why is Trump not a true believer, when every other fascist shithead is?

I mean have you ever seen Trump explaining a coherent belief system? He's clearly in it for the grift, and he clearly believes he deserves to grift the shit out of everyone, but I doubt he has anything resembling a coherent political vision. However, he didn't spend decades risking getting arrested or killed by secret police for it—this is what a grifter lookd like.

despite the fact that he didn't even claim to believe in the same socialism you're defining.

I mean, the (still fascist) self-proclaimed socialists definitely thought he did up until he killed the shit out of them. Weaponized vagueness is a classic fascist tactic and absolutely does count as not believing in what he said; you're grasping at straws here.

God fucking knows you've already went to bat for oligarchy once.

Uh what the fuck? I kept calling them mass murdering tyrants to make it clear that I'm not batting for them here. If you're just going to read whatever you want into what I say then this is a waste of time.

Is your only quibble with Hitler's socialism that the Junkers won out instead of the Strasserists?

Um this

His vision called for a radical restructuring of society based on a romantic, anti-modernist rejection of urban industrialism, aiming for a "de-proletarianized" agrarian society governed by "state feudalism".

Doesn't sound like socialism to me either so no.

We are privileged here, and we are both killing people.

Not to go on a tangent, but as much as you expect. There's plenty of people comfortable enough to argue about politics online, and the obscureness of the forum is irrelevant. If you calculated the number of deaths per person you'd get a small fraction, which well I make a point of trying but there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. If you have examples I'm all ears though.

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social [S] 1 point 5 months ago

Definitely not absolute power, but there was no reason for radical student to ever expect absolute power. His father was a high-ranking regional bureaucrat and his mother was a wealthy landowner; someone as talented, hardworking and ruthless as Lenin would’ve easily been able to get promoted to a high government post, which would’ve made any future ambitions much easier to achieve. It’d have definitely been easier than overthrowing the government—a pipe dream as late as April 1917.

Jesus fucking Christ. You think overthrowing the Tsar was a pipe dream after the February Revolution.

The Tsarist government was widely regarded as on borrowed time since Bloody Sunday in 1905, and was regarded as unstable even before that. Not only that, but this reflects a complete lack of understanding of ambition of powerful men throughout history.

For someone who tells me that I need to study history (apparently my years in college for just that major were insufficient compared to your collection of worldview-affirming factoids garnered through online games of telephone), you have repeatedly demonstrated an appalling lack of even basic knowledge of the facts of the situation, down to the fucking existence of elections before the overthrow of the provisional government and the prominent participation of socialists from the very start.

I mean fucking yes (more or less, my personal line is February 1917)? Anyone not a true believer would’ve dropped out multiple times over. Speaking of which, is there any body of historiography you’re drawing from here or is it just your (very justified) hate for the guy? What’s your evidence here?

The issue here is, at its core, one of principle rather than Stalin specifically - you are asserting, as I have pointed out multiple times at this point in the conversation, a worldview of total incoherence insofar as revolutionaries are concerned, with any long-time revolutionary being a dedicated ideologue with no possibility of other motivations being their core impetus. In this conception, even the most venal opportunist and constant turncloak is necessarily considered a true believer regardless of their words or their actions by simple exposure to danger over a period of time, because you are apparently incapable of imagining any other reason why people stay a course of action.

It's axiomatic, and utterly fucking braindead, the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from a religious fanatic discussing their theology, not a fucking discussion of history and politics with someone who is supposedly left-sympathetic.

Uh what the fuck? At calling them mass murdering tyrants to stress this point. If you’re just going to read whatever you want into what I say then this is a waste of time.

This fucking you, buddy?

No offense, but yeah no you have to be kidding here. Soviet rule under Lenin and Stalin was what turned Russia into a developed country. Virtually every indicator of a modern (for the time period) quality of life exploded. The idea that they did “nothing but create bureaucratized oligarchy” is simply not a serious historical position, and if you seriously believe that you should get back to studying. This is a position not worth debating.

I mean have you ever seen Trump explaining a coherent belief system?

I haven't seen Stalin explain a coherent belief system either. Yet he's a true believer, and Trump is not. For that matter, why does a belief system need to be coherent to be truly believed in? I can cite any number of religious maniacs with contradictory bronze-and-iron-age belief systems and texts who are nonetheless true believers.

He’s clearly in it for the grift, and he clearly believes he deserves to grift the shit out of everyone, but I doubt he has anything resembling a coherent political vision. However, he didn’t spend decades risking getting arrested or killed by secret police for it—this is what a grifter lookd like.

... Trump absolutely has spent decades risking getting arrested. For that matter, the Tsarist autocracy rarely outright killed political opponents, preferring arrest and internal exile - especially for privileged middle class kids like Lenin, who enjoyed a very comfortable exile.

I mean, the (still fascist) self-proclaimed socialists definitely thought he did up until he killed the shit out of them. Weaponized vagueness is a classic fascist tactic and absolutely does count as not believing in what he said; you’re grasping at straws here.

... his stated view of socialism doesn't even contradict his actions. You're ironically engaging in the traditional fascist tactic of treating words as having contradictory meanings in the same fucking argument.

Doesn’t sound like socialism to me either so no.

But the fascist conception of one-man rule in the workplace DOES sound like socialism to you?

Not to go on a tangent, but as much as you expect. There’s plenty of people comfortable enough to argue about politics online, and the obscureness of the forum is irrelevant. If you calculated the number of deaths per person you’d get a small fraction, which well I make a point of trying but there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism. If you have examples I’m all ears though.

Simply by being literate, educated, English-speaking, and with enough time to argue for hours over history, you are necessarily, as am I, sacrificing time which could be spent laboring to save the lives of others.

Do you know how much it costs, even with all the graft and overhead of charity organizations, to provide life-saving supplies to individuals in areas like, say, Palestine?

Do you know how much your time is worth?