Justas comments on The Great Lie

[–] Justas@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Ok ok, so all public sector = bribery, all private sector = meritocracy, got it buddy

I never said that. 2. In private sector, you at least know the prices.

(I thought money was worthless?

It was. You would mostly bribe people with stuff.

It sounds to me like you should blame capitalism. Out of those 12 other people, how many were unemployed adults who would have had a job in capitalism?

We inherited the living situation from the Soviet era. Gradually, other people moved out to their own places and we bought the rest of the flat from them.

You're just a propagandized anticommunist with absolutely 0 empirical data to back up what you're talking about, angry at communism because your life in capitalism was shit.

My life IN "capitalism" is actually pretty good. But I also had a free education and get decent hybrid-system healthcare.

And you're just a propagandized anti-capitalist with 0 actual experience of life in USSR, angry at capitalism because your life in capitalism is shit.

while your Eastern European country becomes a fascist hellhole with destroyed infrastructure, fucked up healthcare, and massive migration towards the EU because people can't find fucking jobs.

Outside of our most recent government, most of those things are actually improving here, lol. If anything, Eastern Europe is the new land of opportunity. There's plenty of jobs for those willing to work, as well.

GDP:

gdp change data

QoL:

quality of life data

Absolute changes in potential road accessibility in the period 2007–2015. (a) Pan-European perspective; (b) macro-regional/CEE perspective.

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[–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

Wow, GDP, the metric of capitalism, rose! Nothing to do with the financialization of the economy, I'm sure! On that same study, which BTW only takes into account 2007-onward investment from what I see and doesnt take into account disintegration of existing infrastructure, shows on Figure 8 how the entire rural regions of the country have been abandoned by capitalism. What a great way of rising GDP, let's force everyone through lack of infrastructure out of their homes and into big metropolises where housing is expensive (high GDP growth) and forget about the rest. Surely rural Eastern Europe is doing great!

You showed absolute quality of life, didn't compare it to Soviet times. Now go and ask people above 50 where QOL was better, in communism or capitalism. Most people in Eastern Europe who actually lived through communism will agree that it was better on average in Communism!

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[–] Justas@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

GDP, the metric of capitalism

It's not a perfect measurement, but it creates a metric that is easy to calculate and it's easy to compare the economies of similar countries or the same country across time.

how the entire rural regions of the country have been abandoned by capitalism

Dude, you just cut the legs off your own argument and declared victory as it bleeds to death. The system that abandoned the rural regions was actually the Soviet Union. First of all, they destroyed many smallholding estates that dotted the countryside under the guise of melioration (reverse irrigation). Second of all, they botched the collective farming (stealing was super common in those too). Third of all, they exiled the most productive and educated members of society, disproportionately from the countryside. Fourth of all, rapid industrialization created a massive demand for workers who would abandon the collective farms and move to cities in droves. This process is simply continuing because once it starts, it's very hard to stop.

Now go and ask people above 50 where QOL was better, in communism or capitalism. Most people in Eastern Europe who actually lived through communism will agree that it was better on average in Communism!

Residents were asked whether they agree with the statement that it was better to live in Lithuania during the Soviet era than it is now. The majority of respondents disagreed with this statement, 26 percent of respondents completely agree or agree with the opinion that it was better to live in Lithuania during the Soviet era than it is now. 42 percent hold the opposite position. 23 percent neither agree nor disagree with this opinion.

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[–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

It's not a perfect measurement, but it creates a metric that is easy to calculate and it's easy to compare the economies of similar countries or the same country across time.

So does Net Material Product. Why don't you bring data with those numbers instead of a metric by which an increase in rent costs and healthcare prices makes GDP increase? Ireland GDP for example is fucked up because of the obvious effect of financialization of the economy now that they're a tax haven. Surely the financialization of the economy has a lot to do? Let's compare instead stuff like tons of steel produced, number of housing units built, homelessness, access to healthcare, emigration rates... you know, the things actually affecting humans, not "line go up".

The system that abandoned the rural regions was actually the Soviet Union

Bffffhahahahahha... Oh god, that's hilarious. How many abandoned rural hospitals are there in your country now that socialism is no more?

rapid industrialization created a massive demand for workers who would abandon the collective farms and move to cities in droves

Smartest section in your comments so far. Yeah, that's a reality of the situation, but in that process life expectancy of people in the countryside was doubled. The rapid industrialization is a controversial policy of the USSR, I agree, but it's one not taken out of ideology, it's one taken out of necessity against external invasion. Famously, in 1931, 2 years after the beginning of collectivization and rapid industrialization, Stalin said in a speech (paraphrasing): "we are 100 years behind the rest of the world, and we need to catch up to them in 10 years. Either we do this, or they kill us". 10 years later, operation Barbarossa began, in which the Soviet Union saved most of your people from slavery and genocide. This was only possible thanks to the newly-created industrial might, which allowed for example the USSR's T-34 to be the most manufactured tank in WW2. Had there been no rapid collectivization and industrialization, you wouldn't have been born because your ancestors would have been entirely genocided by Nazis.

Speaking of your population. Assuming you're Lithuanian, the population peaked at about 3.7mn in 1990, then dropped to 2.7mn in 2020. Surely capitalism is working wonderfully for your country!

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[–] Justas@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

Net Material Product

Net Material Product (NMP) was the main macroeconomic indicator

Because nobody uses it anymore?

Let's compare instead stuff like tons of steel produced,

Why would you measure steel production in a country with no iron or coal mining?

number of housing units built, homelessness, access to healthcare, emigration rates... you know, the things actually affecting humans, not "line go up".

I could try to find some data for you to cherry pick and make conclusions that agree with your ideology but at this point, why would I bother?

Stalin said in a speech

Stalin also purged a lot of competent people and that made Hitler attack earlier too.

Soviet Union saved most of your people from slavery and genocide.

Just so he could do his own slavery and genocide?

Had there been no rapid collectivization and industrialization, you wouldn't have been born because your ancestors would have been entirely genocided by Nazis.

It's easy to claim what would happen if something didn't, but fundamentally we will never know. If Stalin didn't do his purges or if Germany overextended into Siberia, or if Hitler was replaced with a less crazy leader. I could use the same argument: I'm sorry if you think I'm stupid, the teachers of my teachers died in Siberia.

Surely capitalism is working wonderfully for your country!

It is. Of the million people who left, 200-300K were ethnic minorities, especially Soviet colonists, despite that unlike other Baltic states, we offered them Lithuanian citizenship. Nobody misses them.

Of the rest, a lot of people still have ties to this country and send back money, sometimes buy property. The 2000-2007 economic boom was mostly caused by that money. Also, our migration statistics are improving. Migration from third countries is increasing rapidly too.

Net migration to and from Lithuania:

Re-immigration (green) vs immigration (blue) by foreigners:

Except it's not even capitalism as you imagine it. We still have a lot of regulations, high taxation, massive safety nets, affordable education and the means to buy property. Lithuania is a poor country that is getting richer.

Most of you ”socialists that defend Soviet Union" are from rich countries that are getting poorer. But socialism as imagined by Soviet Union was a horrible system made by horrible people and it will not save you.

And every time you use the example of Soviet Union as an example of how great socialism is, your cause actually loses.

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[–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

200-300K were ethnic minorities, especially Soviet colonists, despite that unlike other Baltic states, we offered them Lithuanian citizenship. Nobody misses them.

Aaaand that's where we stop. I don't discuss socialism with overtly racist people. There's no point arguing in good faith against people guided by racist beliefs. Burn in hell, bigot prick. I pray that the next time fascist want to exterminate you and your family you won't have alienated everyone who might protect you.

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[–] Justas@sh.itjust.works 1 point 1 year ago

Should the people who were colonised mourn when colonisers return home?

I'm not racist in any way, shape or form. I have friends from every corner of the globe.

Burn in hell, bigot prick. I pray that the next time fascist want to exterminate you and your family you won't have alienated everyone who might protect you.

And the next time the socialist revolution comes, I hope the purges come for you, too.

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