MildAhoy comments on and they have the fucking gall to call us "parasites"

[–] MildAhoy@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago* (4 children)

Worker bees detect and kill upstart queens.

Not sure what this has to do with selfishness. Is the worker bee killing an upstart-queen from its own hive? If so, what's its motivation to kill the upstart-queen? How does this benefit the worker bee, causing the behavior to be selfish?

Human cells are being destroyed all the time (apoptosis)

In the case of body cells and apoptosis, I'd view the actual human being as equivalent to the entirety of the hive/the queen bee, in which case, the process of apoptosis is selfless from the point of view of the cells killing themselves or other cells - in theory it's for the good of the human being as a whole.

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[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Yes, the upstart-queen is from within the bee’s own hive. The hive permits only 1 queen and others are destroyed. The selfishness is not on the part of the worker who kills it, it’s on the upstart-queen who is trying to replace the main queen.

In the case of body cells and apoptosis, I'd view the actual human being as equivalent to the entirety of the hive/the queen bee, in which case, the process of apoptosis is selfless from the point of view of the cells killing themselves or other cells - in theory it's for the good of the human being as a whole.

Yes, apoptosis is selfless. Cancer is the selfishness it fights against: a group of cells in selfish rebellion against the body.

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[–] MildAhoy@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes, the upstart-queen is from within the bee’s own hive. The hive permits only 1 queen and others are destroyed. The selfishness is not on the part of the worker who kills it, it’s on the upstart-queen who is trying to replace the main queen.

Ah, OK. I'm assuming at some point the upstart-queen does take over the existing hive, maybe once the existing queen dies from sickness or age or the upstart-queen escapes or moves somewhere else to start its own hive?

Yes, apoptosis is selfless. Cancer is the selfishness it fights against: a group of cells in selfish rebellion against the body.

I agree with this. Though, it's a bit odd talking about 'selfishness' in the context of body cells, which I think most people don't think are sentient. But I think we both understand the gist of what we're talking about.

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[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

The upstart queen can replace the main queen if she dies, yeah. Queens produce a pheromone that triggers the killing of upstart queens. In the absence of a queen, an upstart queen can survive and take over.

The idea with cancer being selfish comes from an idea of organisms functioning at different levels of organization. Single-celled organisms, colonial microorganisms, multicellular life, social animals, larger societies, civilizations, ecosystems, the whole planet.

Perhaps one day we may colonize other planets and form yet another, higher level of organization. How it will function is still to be discovered but I think selfishness of individual units is always a potential.

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[–] MildAhoy@lemmy.ml 1 point 1 year ago

The upstart queen can replace the main queen if she dies, yeah. Queens produce a pheromone that triggers the killing of upstart queens. In the absence of a queen, an upstart queen can survive and take over.

This makes sense. From the hive's point of view, there are at least two ways to ensure there is always a queen:

always birth upstart-queen but kill them so long as the active queen is still alive. Once the active queen is sick or dead, an upstart queen will take over.
Only birth an upstart-queen when the active queen is sick and about to die.

Since the latter is more risky e.g. active queen might die before birthing a new queen, the hive goes with the former strategy.

The idea with cancer being selfish comes from an idea of organisms functioning at different levels of organization. Single-celled organisms, colonial microorganisms, multicellular life, social animals, larger societies, civilizations, ecosystems, the whole planet.

I've had similar thoughts regarding the "scope" of an organism. How human individuals think of themselves as separate from other humans but the earth might think of humanity as a single organism.

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