[–] [S] 1 point 2 days ago

It’s not that people don’t understand the buttons. The issue is that voting is meant to do more than record whether someone likes or dislikes a post. It’s supposed to help surface useful contributions and moderate the discussion. I’d expect users to respect that purpose, but the system also makes it easy to use votes as simple approval and disapproval, and that’s the behavior it often rewards.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    Thanks, that helps clarify the differences between Lemmy and PieFed. My concern isn’t mainly who can see vote records. It’s that votes can influence which posts and comments people see.

    My main issue is that people often use votes as likes and dislikes, even though they’re also meant to help moderate content by handing some of that responsibility to the user base. In practice, that can be abused. I’m not exactly sure how Lemmy calculates scores or how much they affect visibility, but if downvotes were purely cosmetic, I wouldn’t have the same concern. Mass downvotes can bury good posts, while mediocre posts can get boosted simply because they’re popular.

    Users can choose how votes factor into their feeds, and disabling downvotes locally won’t stop other instances from using their own votes. I’d still want reactions to be cosmetic, or at least never used by the protocol to rank or suppress content.

    The topic and flair idea overlaps with what PieFed already does. The part I’m still trying to work out is whether spaces should be entirely local to each instance or whether instances could optionally share directory entries. I don’t want the largest instance to control the organization, and smaller instances should be free to organize things differently. A shared directory, if there is one, would need to be optional and not authoritative. I haven’t figured out the governance for that yet.

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    So far, I like what’s been built here. There are a few things I’d change, but they’re not dealbreakers. My main concern is the voting system and how it works. Otherwise, Lemmy seems like a solid option. I’m not sure how much voting can be disabled or changed on an instance.

    I’m considering either hosting a Lemmy instance for nightash.net, where I currently run a traditional forum, or building something closer to the architecture I described here .

    I’d appreciate feedback, especially from people who might be interested in using it.

    [–] [S] 1 point 2 days ago

    Yes, PieFed already organizes communities into topics, so that part of the idea isn’t new. I don’t mean nodes when I say spaces. Nodes host the service and communities; spaces are a separate directory layer that associates with communities. The distinction I’m exploring is a shared, federated directory that isn’t owned by a node or by any one community. I’d need to explain more clearly how that differs from PieFed’s topics.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 days ago (2 children)

    Votes and karma aren’t the same thing, agreed. My concern is that Lemmy’s votes still affect what people see. When posts and comments are ranked by votes, visibility is shaped by the user majority, which doesn’t necessarily reflect relevance or quality. Voting can help surface useful content, but it isn’t a substitute for moderation.

    I’m not proposing a restricted set of communities. Anyone could create a community. The difference is that communities could be associated with a shared, global directory of spaces, and no one would own that directory. Spaces wouldn’t be communities themselves; they’d help organize and connect communities around subjects. For example, a History space could list several independently run history communities.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 2 days ago (4 children)

    I’m not saying votes are useless. The concern is that a karma system can’t reliably distinguish relevance or quality from popularity, disagreement, or a coordinated downvote. Votes may work well for you, but they can still bury a worthwhile post or boost a bad one. I also agree that without karma, the system would be meaningfully different from Reddit.

    I’m not proposing a wiki where everyone edits the same pages. Threads would remain discussions, and spaces and subjects would be reusable tags. Moderators would handle rule enforcement, not own or control the subject matter.

    I think good moderation could make the difference. If moderators are chosen for fair, merit-based judgment and their decisions are transparent and appealable, paying them could be worth the investment. The forum might not work for everyone, but it could flourish for people who want that kind of discussion.

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    **Please use upvotes and downvotes to reflect relevance, not whether you like or dislike a post. If you disagree, share your opinion instead of downvoting. That’s not what downvotes are for. **

    I’ve been thinking about a forum built around shared subjects, not popularity.

    Spaces and subjects would both work as reusable tags. A space called History could be associated with a History subject, as well as narrower subjects like Ancient History or Oral History. They can share a name without being the same thing. A thread could carry multiple space and subject tags, and both kinds of tags could be reused across the network. Nobody would own “History” as a directory.

    There’d be no karma or vote-based ranking. Likes and dislikes could be cosmetic, but they wouldn’t affect scores or visibility. The goal is to avoid vote brigades and keep popularity from being mistaken for quality.

    Lemmy uses upvotes and downvotes to score and sort posts, which can create some of the same popularity dynamics as Reddit. This design would try to make thoughtful discussion easier to find by removing that mechanism, though no system can guarantee quality on its own.

    Federation would work at two levels. Nodes could choose what to receive, and spaces or subjects could also isolate themselves from selected sources. No one would control what can exist across the whole network, but each node or community could choose what it sees.

    I’m also considering optional paid moderators. For the node I host, I’d choose moderators for their ability to judge discussion on its merits, using clear rules rather than popularity or agreement with a majority. Other nodes could choose a different moderation approach. My node’s approach would be merit.

    That would need safeguards like public guidelines, explanations for important decisions, and appeals. Judging merit can be subjective, so the process should be open to scrutiny.

    It probably wouldn’t appeal to everyone, and that may be fine. I’d rather have a smaller community that understands the ethos than chase growth at any cost.

    What problems do you see, especially with moderation, discovery, and preventing communities from becoming echo chambers? Obviously "anti-echo-chamber" and federation don't completely mesh with each other. but the idea here is that one competent node should be enough to carry the network, other nodes exist primarily as backups more so than being communities.

                             FEDERATED NETWORK  
                 shared protocol, content, and discovery  
            ┌─────────────────────────────────────────────┐  
            │                                             │  
       ┌────▼─────┐                                  ┌────▼─────┐  
       │  NODE A  │◄──────── federation ───────────►│  NODE B  │  
       │          │                                  │          │  
       │ Chooses  │                                  │ Chooses  │  
       │ what to  │                                  │ what to  │  
       │ receive  │                                  │ receive  │  
       └────┬─────┘                                  └────┬─────┘  
            └──────────────────┬──────────────────────────┘  
                               │  
                        shared content graph  
                               │  
           ┌───────────────────┼────────────────────┐  
           │                   │                    │  
      ┌────▼─────┐        ┌────▼─────┐         ┌────▼─────┐  
      │  SPACE   │        │  SPACE   │         │  SPACE   │  
      │  History│        │  Books   │         │  Science │  
      └────┬─────┘        └────┬─────┘         └────┬─────┘  
           │                   │                    │  
           │ contains          │ contains           │ contains  
           ▼                   ▼                    ▼  
      ┌──────────┐        ┌──────────┐         ┌──────────┐  
      │  TOPIC   │        │  TOPIC   │         │  TOPIC   │  
      │ History  │        │ Fiction  │         │ Biology  │  
      ├──────────┤        └──────────┘         └──────────┘  
      │Ancient   │  
      │ History  │  
      ├──────────┤  
      │ Oral     │  
      │ History  │  
      └────┬─────┘  
           │  
           │ Topics are reusable tags.  
           │ A space and topic can share a name,  
           │ but they are different things.  
           ▼  
      ┌─────────────────────┐  
      │       THREAD        │  
      │                     │  
      │ Tagged with multiple│  
      │ topics and visible  │  
      │ in relevant spaces │  
      └──────────┬──────────┘  
                 │  
           comments and replies  
    
    
      FEDERATION AND FILTERING  
      ┌──────────────────────────┐   ┌──────────────────────────┐  
      │ Nodes can choose which   │   │ Topics can choose which   │  
      │ nodes or topics to       │   │ sources to receive from  │  
      │ receive from             │   │ or isolate from           │  
      └──────────────────────────┘   └──────────────────────────┘  
    
      PARTICIPATION  
      ┌──────────────────────────┐   ┌──────────────────────────┐  
      │ Cosmetic likes/dislikes │   │ No karma or vote-based   │  
      │ do not rank content      │   │ ranking                  │  
      └──────────────────────────┘   └──────────────────────────┘  
    
      OPTIONAL MODERATION  
      ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐  
      │ Nodes choose their moderation approach. The host node   │  
      │ selects paid moderators for merit-based judgment, using │  
      │ clear rules, explanations, and an appeals process.      │  
      └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘